Brain Size Determines Psychology
How our psychological evolution is necessitated by our physiological evolution; Big Brains = Big Emotions
Please scroll down for links below the transcript. This is lightly edited AI generated transcript and there may be errors.
Dr. Josh Stout 0:00
I'm trying to connect it from the very nature of humanity to the problems we're now seeing based on who we are physiologically with these big heads, creating all of these emotions that we feel so strongly that are then being manipulated so that we turn them against who we see as an other...
Eric 0:33
It's a it's a rare Saturday recording. Today is Saturday, March 1st. Happy March, Josh.
Dr. Josh Stout 0:40
Hey, how are you doing? Rabbit. Rabbit, Rabbit. Or is that May? I can't remember.
Eric 0:43
I don't know what that is. Maybe we don't need to talk about it? What is that?
Dr. Josh Stout 0:48
You say it on the first of the month. First thing before you say anything else. And it's like, good luck for the month. But I can't remember when that is. Okay.
Eric 0:54
Well.
Dr. Josh Stout 0:54
Anyway, then I think of rabbits and I think of March. Yeah, March Hare. Anyway.
Eric 1:00
Hare. I have heard that. Yeah, in a way. Okay.
Dr. Josh Stout 1:03
Mad as a March hare. [How you doing. Josh?] I am doing well. I wanted to sort of ramble on about some thoughts I've been having in my Darwinian medicine class where we talk about the nature of us being a species with a really big head and what that does to us.
Eric 1:25
We are actually a species that has a bigger head in relation to our body than other species?
Dr. Josh Stout 1:30
Our, our brain is, is really freakishly large in some ways. We are we are we have maxed out the possibilities for it. There is no further we can go in that direction, certainly not and be a biped not and actually have babies carried inside females that without without some other intervention. We can't we can't our heads literally cannot get any bigger and be given birth to.
Eric 1:58
Oh that's what you mean. We can't get through the birth canal.
Dr. Josh Stout 2:01
We cannot get through the birth canal. We are also using a tremendous amount of energy with our brains. They use close to 20% of our total calories. So there are huge, huge cost. And so we've like basically shrunk everything else...
Eric 2:18
Does that cost go up when we think more?
Dr. Josh Stout 2:20
No, actually, interestingly, it does not. The it's a pretty steady state which argues for some of the things like the default network that these things just engage.
Eric 2:29
The Default Mode Network.
Dr. Josh Stout 2:29
Yeah exactly. Yeah. These things just engage all the time and you don't, you don't actually change how much an energy is. No. And so yeah. And so there's all sorts of things. We have extra large blood vessels to carry heat out of our heads because just all of this calorie use is burning up energy and so we're burning sugar constantly. Everything about us is dedicated to getting a constant supply of glucose into the brain without ever having an interruption. You're dead in, you know, 30 seconds. If you don't have glucose in your brain, maybe faster. If it's going down rapidly, you're going down rapidly.
Eric 3:06
So when so when you die due to heart failure, it's not because your cells are not getting what they need, it's because your brain dies because it doesn't get...
Dr. Josh Stout 3:15
Well, I mean, it's usually oxygen that goes first.
Eric 3:18
The oxygen is the problem.
Dr. Josh Stout 3:19
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, it would it's hard to say. Is it? You know, it's the wood on the fire. Is that the oxygen burning the wood or is it the wood? You know, you don't have those things.
Eric 3:32
Kind of a silly question.
Dr. Josh Stout 3:33
You know, I mean, they kind of need to go together. But yeah, so the the, the biology of the brain in many ways constrains our biology and in many ways constrains our behavior. So when you are born, your brain is so tremendously large you can, you know, just if you put your hands up over your head and touch your fingertips, that's roughly the size of your head.
Eric 4:00
Yeah, yeah. No, I remember, I remember my kids could not get their arms over their head.
Dr. Josh Stout 4:05
Yeah. Yeah. Sort of just about right there is, is, is where that limit is. And so that is as big as you can get out of a biped. And so then the rest of the development has to happen outside of the womb. And yeah, the babies are tremendously helpless. I mean, one, they have this huge head, they can't even keep their head up.
Eric 4:27
Can't hold their head up.
Dr. Josh Stout 4:28
And so that's flopping all around. You have to support them all the time and they need constant food or they're going to die like instantly die because their brain is just burning up all of those calories all the time. You know, I said it was a fifth, but that's about adults in infants. You know what? It's going to be like a third. It's a ridiculous amount of their total energy. Well, I mean, think about it just in terms of volume. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So and they and they don't come out all that fat. They build up fat after they're born so that they never, ever run out of calories. And so they're, you know, they're born, I don't know, like, you know, four or 5% fat and they have to get up to like 20% just really quickly. But yeah, so that requires a ton of energy from the woman who has just been carrying this very large creature inside her. It's, you know, larger than many, many eye, you know.
Eric 5:23
Mammals.
Dr. Josh Stout 5:25
Mammals, offspring. In relation to her body size. Yeah. Yeah. It's big. Yeah.
Eric 5:30
And she's had to get an even bigger for my wife.
Dr. Josh Stout 5:34
And, and and and and the birth canal is tightly constrained by being a biped so the pelvis can only get so wide. Yeah. And so all of this is, is a tremendous cost. So we assume that the brain is doing something that's a benefit for it. But you can see how this is sort of a one way ticket of evolution. Like once you've gone all this direction, you need to cut down on the size of your gut because you can no longer spend that much energy on your gut too, if you're going to support your brain. So you need to cook your food, things like this, you know, all of our behaviors become dedicated to keeping our brain alive. Yeah, yeah. And start guiding the way we exist. We, we, you know, need constant supplies of food. The mother can't feed herself and her baby successfully. She needs other people. There usually it's, you know, some sort of male mate, something like that. But it all too is going to be in a larger extended family. What if he doesn't succeed in the hunt that day? They can't all starve, right? So they have to be part of a larger group. And so this kind of dependency and sharing of resources is built into our very, very early psyche that we can't live without this. And so as we're.
Eric 6:56
When you say early psyche, you mean early in terms of an individual's development or early in terms of our development as humans.
Dr. Josh Stout 7:02
Our development as humans. But I suspect we actually there was that wonderful phrase about ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, so that we go through our own coming to be ontogeny onto this being. We go through our own process of coming to be with our phylogenetic changes, so we sort of copy what we've gone through. We start off as a fish and we slowly turn into a baby, right? And then as a baby we go through some of the same things though. So for example,chimpanzees can drink and breathe at the same time. We cannot.
Eric 7:44
Yeah.
Dr. Josh Stout 7:45
We cannot because we have modified our throats for language. Language is that important that we're willing to die every once in a while from something stuck in our throats - that didn't happen to chimpanzees.
We we go through that same thing as babies to adults so babies can nurse and breathe at the same time as adults. We could not do that. So they're they're they're they're larynx where their epiglottis closes off narrowly.
Eric 8:14
We decided that we did not want to give it up that early that yet.
Dr. Josh Stout 8:19
So it moves down our throat as we mature and so you can actually see, oh, a seven year old is roughly where a homo erectus would have been in terms of the stage of evolution, seven, eight year old, something like that. And so you can see how we're going through all of these steps.
Eric 8:37
We don't rebuild each time. We just we just add on.
Dr. Josh Stout 8:41
We just keep on adding on to what was already there. Exactly. Yeah. So this is this is what I'm talking about in terms of how it constrains our psychology is that we have these really fundamental things that are involved of we need to talk to each other. So we are really to risk our lives by lowering our larynx. This is a biological thing that's happening because of our brains needing all of this support, needing a community, needing sharing, requiring these things of us. Also psychologically, if we don't like community and support and sharing, we don't fit in with that. And there's a problem. It also constrains the other side of things. When we would get to a kill site, there was a giant mound of beef, you know, mound of meat of some sort. If we got that meat, our group, our our tribe, our, our, whatever our group was, was going to survive for the next week or so. And because they were going to have plenty of calories, there is there is calories in the bone marrow. There was things we could cut with our tools that nothing else could get to. This was a huge source of food. Who was going to be competing for it with us? US? Right. Another group of us I've talked about this in terms of throwing hand axes and aggression in that sense, but it means that we are fighting for our lives every time we meet strangers. And so while at the same time we cannot survive without community, without sharing, without working together, we are also incredibly suspicious and aggressive towards anyone from the outside.
Eric 10:20
And we need to be in order to survive.
Dr. Josh Stout 10:22
And we need to be in a way that other animals don't. Right? Other animals are territorial. Other animals will share their food, but they don't do it the way we do. They don't do it as a absolute constrained portion of their evolution, where if they didn't act this way, there was zero chance that they would get through the next couple of days. You know, this was a very, very tight set of constraints, just the way our brain is, you know, sized maximally for our pelvic diameters. Right. That these are these are biological constraints where there's no way around it.
Eric 10:56
Yeah.
Dr. Josh Stout 10:57
These are psychological constraints where we need to be community and working with each other. And we can't survive without it psychologically. We also are that kind of, you know, pressure behind our aggression. There is that kind of pressure behind our aggression.
Eric 11:16
There's evolutionary pressure to share and communicate and be in community, and there's evolutionary pressure to absolutely fight as hard as you can against the other group.
Dr. Josh Stout 11:26
As soon as you see them.
Eric 11:27
Soon as you see them.
Dr. Josh Stout 11:27
As soon as you see them, because otherwise you won't get the food for your people.
Eric 11:31
And this is why we both intimately understand that, that there will be enough and we need to share. And there is also a zero sum relationship.
Dr. Josh Stout 11:39
And we and we never see anything outside of a zero sum relationship, really. There's only one pile of meat. Well, that's all we ever understand.
Eric 11:45
The meat is for us then. Then we share and. Right, right.
Dr. Josh Stout 11:48
Right, right, right, right, exactly. No, we have to if we must. But when we see another group, everything is.
Eric 11:54
Everything changes.
Dr. Josh Stout 11:55
Yeah, we're all fighting for this one thing, and all survival is for this one thing. There is no possibility of there being a win win situation. It's. It's really built into us.
Eric 12:07
So we need to get past our own evolution.
Dr. Josh Stout 12:09
We do well. What we what we start needing to do is what religions try to do, where they say, Well, we are all brothers. This is what you know, this is how you start to say, Oh, we're all one big group.
Eric 12:22
Is that what religions try to do? Really?
Dr. Josh Stout 12:23
Well, they, they do both of the things that we've been talking about. They encourage you take in the stranger, feed them when they come. They say all these things. Right.
Eric 12:34
And these are just on paper. They say that.
Dr. Josh Stout 12:36
And then they also encourage you to go out and kill everyone who's different from you. You know, I'm a jealous God. You shall have another another gods before me. All of these things are also on the paper right? So this this this dichotomy that we see in our sort of spiritual tradition is is a biological one.
Eric 12:56
It's a biological imperative. It's an evolutionary biological imperative.
Dr. Josh Stout 12:58
Yeah. And so you can't you can't blame religion for being built by humans. You know, it's the way we are. And so what we need to do is is looked at, look at the sort of more transcendent side of things where, you know, religions try and help us figure out how not to kill everyone, you see and not look at the and, you know, look at the more, you know, parts. We're actually helping people. And you know, that the idea of charity is something that is built into many, many, many, many religions ideas of working with each other, as is the ideas of warfare and killing the infidel.
Eric 13:38
Yeah, we wouldn't need charity if the community just took care of everybody.
Dr. Josh Stout 13:42
Well, because that would be charity. I mean, that would I mean, it.
Eric 13:45
Wouldn't be charity if it was just the way the community operated all the time for everyone.
Dr. Josh Stout 13:49
Okay? I mean, I'm. I'm thinking.
Eric 13:51
Of God. So. So never in need. And therefore, there's no need for charity. Everyone has what they need.
Dr. Josh Stout 13:56
Yeah, the Greek I'm thinking like the Greek word Caritas, which is like a giving love, which means like the love you have for the people you are with. That kind of.
Eric 14:05
Sincerity is in is in giving to those in need. You mean having charity for all for the rest of humanity and those you meet and see?
Dr. Josh Stout 14:12
Yes, yes,
yes.
Eric 14:15
You mean a much bigger definition of the word 'charity'.
Dr. Josh Stout 14:17
I mean so So in a religious context, this would be the lion lies down with the lamb. This is this is. This is. This is the kingdom of God.
Eric 14:26
Okay.
Dr. Josh Stout 14:27
But, you know, and this is, you know, I you know, I'm.
Eric 14:31
The kingdom of god otherwise known as the barter system, when we all lived together peacefully...
Dr. Josh Stout 14:34
No, no no, not necessarily. Absolutely not. No, no. But it is it is it is something where you start to acknowledge that we are not different groups fighting against each other, but we are, you know, one group that needs to work together and, you know, as as our, you know, universe is more connected, we would.
Eric 14:53
Be growing past our evolutionary psychology, which is.
Dr. Josh Stout 14:56
Really different. And so so part of the problem and this is something that is also come up repeatedly, you know, is straight out the oligarchs, because we we are also have jealousy built directly into our psychology. If someone is taking from you in your group and you're not getting the resources that they're getting, they're stealing from you and you hate them and you're angry, all the time that they exist there and they and you are suffering directly. And this is going to be on a on a psychological level. It's also a physiological level because you're feeling that anger. Anger is a real physiological thing. There's corticosteroids, you're you're suffering because of it. And, you know, your blood pressure is going to go up, your cholesterol is going to go up simply because an oligarch exists and you know, fundamentally that they have resources that they are hoarding and you can't get them. And all of your two, two and a half million years of big brained evolution says that's wrong. That's really dangerous. It's dangerous for me and my family to have other people hoarding the resources and I can't get them.
Eric 16:04
Keeping the resources in jail, as I like to say.
Dr. Josh Stout 16:06
And so this this this is also deeply, deeply programmed into as other animals get jealous, Other animals do not get jealous the way humans do. So I deeply believe...
Eric 16:16
How do we know other animals get jealous?
Dr. Josh Stout 16:20
Oh, you can you can you can see it all the time. You know, you you. The experiment has been done. You give a bunch of dogs food and then you give half of them food and not the other half. And if they're doing tricks, the ones that don't get the reward won't do the trick the next time because they're going to be upset with you. They're going to turn their backs on you. You I certainly see it with my own animals all the time. One of them will get jealous of the other. The dog doesn't like it if I'm having the cat. You know, it's exactly it's exactly like when you're with your kids, but they're they're they're a little less psychotic about it than humans are because their entire existence didn't depend on it in a wolf pack. Obviously, they need to share the food or otherwise they'll starve. So there definitely is a sense of who gets what. But there's also a very strong hierarchy who gets to eat first. And this is all sort of understood.
Eric 17:14
These things are delineated and understood.
Dr. Josh Stout 17:15
And as long as you don't break that, the jealousy isn't going to be too bad. The puppy isn't jealous that the leader gets to eat first, right? Because that's just the way things are, right? As primates, we definitely understand hierarchy. We understand that there is going to be, you know, people at the top of a ladder and people at the bottom. But if the people at the top are not sharing with the people at the bottom, this in a you know, a tribal society meant that there was a real problem. And so, you know, many groups would have things like a potlatch where the the wealthy members of the tribe would compete to give away goods to the rest of the tribe and support everyone in this way. And this helped fend off jealousy. It is absolutely in our nature to be jealous of anything we don't have that someone else has.
Eric 18:06
In in in Korea. When I was in Korea, I worked in a in a school. And when when one of the teachers would get a new suit or a new car, whenever you got something new, you had to get everyone else a gift. Yeah. Or else you would get the evil eye. Yeah.
Dr. Josh Stout 18:24
And I mean, I get that that's there for a reason. It's to build the community. It's to stop that kind of jealousy. And that's a real thing.
Eric 18:33
It's an actual above board admission. Yeah. That. I don't want you to be jealous of me. So part of the cost of me getting this is me giving you some. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's right there. Yeah, That's fascinating.
Dr. Josh Stout 18:47
And so somehow we're turning this. We're turning, We're turning. What should be a resentment of the oligarchs having all the resources sort of against ourselves. And this, this is in many ways, what's happened to us politically is just brilliant. It's just. I know, I know. So let me give you an example of sort of the direction I'm thinking. I haven't quite worked out all of the details of this, but, when we brought - meaning my ancestors - Africans from Africa and enslaved them, they knew who to blame. They knew it wasn't their fault, it was someone else's. When we decided women couldn't own property in this country and didn't give them the vote for the first hundred and 50 years, they knew who to blame. They knew whose fault it was.
When we, as you know, particularly privileged men, but in general sort of American society, who think we should be the ones in charge of everything when we start to feel oppressed, who are we supposed to blame? And so very often men start blaming women, white men start blaming minorities. We, we, we we feel this sense of we have been oppressed by the system as a whole and it can't be us. That's doing our own oppressing. So we we feel we turn our sort of inner jealousy and rage of this system is crushing us against whatever other we perceive.
So it's we start doing what we would do to the other tribe who's taking our things right, the other tribe is coming for that big pile of meat. And we say, That's our pile of meat. So this is, you know, the backlash against T.I. This is the backlash in favor of, you know, traditional wives, the Trad wife movement, which is just insane.
And, you know, these are things, again, that are playing on our inner drives that are built into the way we've...
Eric 21:15
Yeah, but this is us doing this to ourselves.
Dr. Josh Stout 21:18
Well, absolutely. It is us doing it ourselves. And it's because we're not focusing on what's really happening is the resources are being hoarded by a very, very small minority. And this shouldn't be possible in a in a in a democracy. Simply the competition for resources in a democracy should be based ultimately on your ability to vote, not on the amount of resources someone has. Like if one person has half the resources and all of the people have the other half of the resources divided amongst them, they should outvote that person with half the resources. And yet he has all the money. Yeah. So he controls everything.
Eric 22:00
Yeah. And let's listen. Let's listen. What do we hear
Not even an echo - right into the void. Like. Like I hear you. And I'm right with you.
Dr. Josh Stout 22:09
You're listening to the void.
Eric 22:11
There's nothing. You don't want.
Dr. Josh Stout 22:12
The void to talk back.
Eric 22:13
Not even echo. Like it's like we say these things and we're like, You're absolutely right. And now people are even saying this in in mass media and it's too late. Like it's they have the levers, the levers of power. You're right. This should not be possible in a democracy.
Dr. Josh Stout 22:30
It should not be.
Eric 22:30
But there's literally there's no stopping it. Right. So literally.
Dr. Josh Stout 22:33
I'm just I'm trying to connect a term I'm trying to connect it from the very nature of humanity to the problems we're now seeing based on who we are physiologically with these big heads, creating all of these emotions that we feel so strongly that are then being manipulated so that we turn them against who we see as an other and we don't then really realize that what we need is some sort of transfer of resources - some people need to share.
Eric 23:08
So so as I as I as I as I often ask you, when we get to this point, what do you see as the prescription like, how do we how do we move forward at this moment in time.
Dr. Josh Stout 23:20
And understanding our own power as a community? And, you know, we are the tribe. You know, we are we are the group. We need to work with each other. And, you know, this is always the goal. I mean, this is what set forth the utopia. You know, this is this is the idea of how do we help each other so that we can all prosper. You know, this was what we started to do as a nation is what we tried to do. We're all together, we're all equal. We all have the same abilities, and we're going to move forward. You know, right from the very beginning, there were there were problems with that, as we know. But this was the dream. It's always been the dream and it's always been the dream of our democracy. And we have undermined it ourselves fundamentally because of our jealousy. And we've focused the jealousy well. We've had it focused for us in many ways. But the jealousy is now focused on the wrong groups. You know, we've decided that the problem is DIY and people taking our jobs.
Eric 24:18
We haven't even decided that that's just what we've been told. Like no one decided that for us. I mean, no one decided that holistically. There wasn't there was no groundswell.
Dr. Josh Stout 24:27
No, no real.
Eric 24:28
There was no grassroots movement. But what I'm saying is, yeah, it was literally one day we woke up and this was what was happening.
Dr. Josh Stout 24:35
Our fundamental emotions of of of jealousy and anger are because of what happens when we are not properly shared with, you know, we're we're like three year olds who are upset that we didn't get the cake. And we can see the cake over there and we're not getting any of that cake.
Eric 24:50
Well, I mean, you're basically talking about that the what would essentially be the the MAGA group as these people who didn't get the cake and now want the cake, I.
Dr. Josh Stout 24:59
Think we're all in the same group to a certain extent.
Eric 25:01
It's like.
Dr. Josh Stout 25:02
Some of.
Eric 25:02
Us who worked at USAID for 20, 30 years and are now finding themselves out on the street without any hope of employment. That's not people who didn't get the cake.
Dr. Josh Stout 25:11
Well, I wonder about that. Did they have tens of millions of dollars for the wonderful work they were doing, or were they working at fairly low pay, helping the entire world, dedicating their entire, like entire way of life to sharing and helping? Right. Do you think that they looked at the oligarchs and said, I'm really glad about this system, I'm super. Oh, so they were they were also in it. Some people were a little bit easier to manipulate and to blaming. I don't think the people from USAID were blaming diversity for the reason they were not paid well to do their amazing job. You know, I think we're all in the same boat in that there is only like, you know, 12 guys who are doing all of the robbing from us. They are the robber barons, and we're all suffering because of it. And some of us, I mean, apparently a slight minority of Americans has decided I'm sorry, majority of Americans have decided. It's it's it's the fault of of of diversity in some way.
Eric 26:13
Oh, I just don't know that I agree with that statement because I don't know that that was what was on offer when they voted this way. Was that was was that really what was being attacked all throughout the.
Dr. Josh Stout 26:25
I think so. I mean, that was that was that was in the in the midterm elections that, you know, were won by was it West Virginia or Virginia? I can't remember. It was the governor who went against a guy who became a Republican governor in a relatively blue state. They they they changed everything on that. DeSantis went the same way. It was it was it was all against the political correctness and the the DUI and the the, you know, the anti-woke and all of that. That was a lot of it. So anyway, I don't need to get into the politics. I'm just saying that it's our fundamental emotions are not just that we have these emotions, but we can't get rid of them. We have to acknowledge that they're based in our in our biology.
Eric 27:10
In our evolution.
Dr. Josh Stout 27:11
In our evolutionary biology, and that they're much more intense than any other species. These are these are unique human traits.
Eric 27:19
And it's by design is what I'm saying. It's by design. It's part of why we have survived this long.
Dr. Josh Stout 27:23
It's coupled to our big brains. We cannot leave these things behind without leaving behind the big brains. So these are these are things that are that are directly built in, you know, just like jealousy. If if, if, you know, a female goes and has sex with someone and comes back and now the male is trying to raise her child, he's going to be deeply, evolutionarily hurt. All of these resources are going to not his genes. So he's going to be murderously jealous. Most animals are not that murderously jealous in the same way they you know, they're they're not as likely to kill their mate under the same circumstance. Human males are very likely to.
Eric 28:11
I know it sounds absurd, but we have many stories like this.
Dr. Josh Stout 28:15
Yeah.
Women are also jealous. Slightly different contexts, but, you know, similar kinds of things where if a man starts to start spending time with another woman, her babies are going to starve. She can't let that happen. So, you know, there is some biological aspects to gender. There's some that are determined by by culture. But there's also fundamental aspects of everyone feels intense jealousy if you see your future being taken away. And so this this is happening at the interpersonal level as well. You know, if you say you're your future being taken away by someone else, you become, you know, enraged. And this is.
Eric 28:59
This is this is what's happening, like going around.
Dr. Josh Stout 29:01
Deeply in.
Eric 29:02
Government workers. Thousands and thousands and thousands of government workers are suddenly finding themselves without a future.
Dr. Josh Stout 29:08
Well, think think of the incels. If you want to have some people who are totally do want to.
Eric 29:12
I don't want to do that.
Dr. Josh Stout 29:13
But but that that is their rage, right? They think that rich people took their women and therefore they should kill women. I mean, that's sort of like they're straight out here.
Eric 29:22
Rich people took their women, or the women want the rich people?
Dr. Josh Stout 29:25
Same thing. It's the women's fault. Exactly. But, you know, it's that same exact jealousy.
Eric 29:30
You described it. Why wouldn't the rage be against the rich people who took their women?
Dr. Josh Stout 29:32
Well, it should be, but yeah.
Eric 29:34
But it's not.
Dr. Josh Stout 29:35
Yeah, exactly. So that's this this this, this this whole twist that we have is is all about taking that jealousy and rage and turning it towards the wrong people. Yeah. All right. Really good at it. They are, they're really good at it. But I really want to end on we have we have sharing, we have community, we have communication as a basis for sharing community built into our psychology just as deeply. And it is just as tremendously important to who we are. You know, it is it is something that makes us human in a way that other animals don't have that makes us able to succeed in ways that other animals don't. It is not our jealousy and hatred and rage and anger at the other that has built the world. It is our ability to work together. And so, you know, I think I still have hope, but we really need to get there and we need we need to do it, you know, through democracy and through working together to build a nation that actually cares about itself.
Eric 30:34
Yeah. Itself and its people.
Dr. Josh Stout 30:36
And its people.
Eric 30:37
Individuals. Yeah. All right. Thank you.
Dr. Josh Stout 30:38
Josh Well, thank you, Eric.
Eric 30:40
Fascinating. All right, guys, thanks for listening. Until next time.
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